Soul Memory in Dark Souls 2 is covered on this page.
Soul Memory
What is Soul Memory for?
Soul Memory is the cumulative total of all the souls gathered on a character. In this game, it is part of the formula that sets minimum and maximum range for interactions between players online (co-op and invasions).
This is, for example, to prevent a player of a certain level that is close to the end of the game from invading/doing co-op with a player of the same level that might be still in the first areas of the game.
If you wish to play with others, you must be within a similar Soul Memory range. Higher Soul Level characters can still be paired with lower leveled characters who have similar Soul Memory ranges.
- Soul items and boss souls you pick up add to your Soul Memory only when you use them.
- You can check your Soul Memory on your Player Status screen, the top right-hand number.
- Souls picked up from your bloodstain after dying won't add up to your soul memory.
- Souls lost upon dying a second time without touching your bloodstain still count in your soul memory.
- It is better to always recover your souls on the bloodstain if you don't want to get "under(soul)leveled".
- A summoning range calculator can be found here.
Notes
- Soul Level does not matter in summoning - it is purely Soul Memory that affects it.
- NG shares the same exact ranges as NG+.
- The Soul Memory threshold flattens out at 45m. Once you pass this threshold, you can summon and be summoned by anyone else past it, regardless of how large the gap! If your SM is 50m and your friends is 400m, you can still summon each other regardless.
Soul Memory Tiers and Exact Ranges for Multiplayer Connections
Note that the specifics may be subject to change in future calibrations, but this appears to be exactly how it works for now. Tested on PS3.
How are the ranges calculated?
- Soul Memory is divided into tiers, but the tiers are not hard boundaries. Instead, different multiplayer items extend across different amounts of neighboring tiers. So there's no direct math involved, it's a question of
- A) What tier am I in? and
- B) How many tiers above and below my own can I pair up with?
- It is NOT anything like +/- 25%, 50,000, etc.
Tiers
| Tier # | Soul Memory |
|---|---|
| 1 | 0 - 9,999 |
| 2 | 10,000 - 19,999 |
| 3 | 20,000 - 29,999 |
| 4 | 30,000 - 39,999 |
| 5 | 40,000 - 49,999 |
| 6 | 50,000 - 69,999 |
| 7 | 70,000 - 89,999 |
| 8 | 90,000 - 109,999 |
| 9 | 110,000 - 129,999 |
| 10 | 130,000 - 149,999 |
| 11 | 150,000 - 179,999 |
| 12 | 180,000 - 209,999 |
| 13 | 210,000 - 239,999 |
| 14 | 240,000 - 269,999 |
| 15 | 270,000 - 299,999 |
| 16 | 300,000 - 349,999 |
| 17 | 350,000 - 399,999 |
| 18 | 400,000 - 449,999 |
| 19 | 450,000 - 499,999 |
| 20 | 500,000 - 599,999 |
| 21 | 600,000 - 699,999 |
| 22 | 700,000 - 799,999 |
| 23 | 800,000 - 899,999 |
| 24 | 900,000 - 999,999 |
| 25 | 1,000,000 - 1,099,999 |
| 26 | 1,100,000 - 1,199,999 |
| 27 | 1,200,000 - 1,299,999 |
| 28 | 1,300,000 - 1,399,999 |
| 29 | 1,400,000 - 1,499,999 |
| 30 | 1,500,000 - 1,749,999 |
| 31 | 1,750,000 - 1,999,999 |
| 32 | 2,000,000 - 2,249,999 |
| 33 | 2,250,000 - 2,499,999 |
| 34 | 2,500,000 - 2,749,999 |
| 35 | 2,750,000 - 2,999,999 |
| 36 | 3,000,000 - 4,999,999 |
| 37 | 5,000,000 - 6,999,999 |
| 38 | 7,000,000 - 8,999,999 |
| 39 | 9,000,000 - 11,999,999 |
| 40 | 12,000,000 - 14,999,999 |
| 41 | 15,000,000 - 19,999,999 |
| 42 | 20,000,000 - 29,999,999 |
| 43 | 30,000,000 - 44,999,999 |
| 44 | 45,000,000 - 999,999,999 |
Multiplayer Items
| Multiplayer Item | Downward Range | Upward Range | Example |
|---|---|---|---|
| White Sign Soapstone | -3 Tiers | +1 Tier | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 17 - 21 |
| White Sign Soapstone with Name-Engraved Ring |
-6 Tiers | +4 Tiers | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 14 - 24 |
| Small White Sign Soapstone | -4 Tiers | +2 Tiers | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 16 - 22 |
| Small White Sign Soapstone with Name-Engraved Ring |
-7 Tiers | +5 Tiers | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 13 - 25 |
| Red Sign Soapstone | -5 Tiers | +2 Tiers | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 15 - 22 |
| Dragon Eye | -5 Tiers | +5 Tiers | Tier 20 can send their sign to a host in tiers 15 - 25 |
| Cracked Red Eye Orb | none | +4 Tiers | Tier 20 can invade a host in tiers 20 - 24 |
| Cracked Blue Eye Orb | -3 Tiers | +3 Tiers | Tier 20 can invade a host in tiers 17 - 23 |
| Bell Keeper's Seal | -1 Tier | +3 Tiers | Tier 20 can invade a host in tiers 19 - 23 |
Untested
- Abyss Invasions
- Mirror Knight Summons
- Tested by Hirokisugihara & Illusorywall
- All credits go to illusorywall & optic_niko, hellkite_drake, ein death, hiroki sugihara, greensvadhisthana, eur0pa, blade, and necroi!
AnonymousThanks to this system there's barely any low level twinks or ganks, and the if you want to twink anyway you re gonna sweat blood to get a proper twink build.
You might not share my opinion, but ds3's pvp gankfest being worse than ds1's invasions by lvl 150s in undead burg is a damn fact, and the fact that ds3's broken ass pvp was the "people's favorite" speak volumes about how sometimes the majority of players doesn't even know what they want and they only repeat what they like to gear like mindless sheeps.
Ds2 is here and it is like we all know. You have 5 other similar games to play if you don't like this one, so spray your tears elsewhere.
- Anonymous
I think it's a good system. In theory, each soul you gather is a little bit better you get at the game, no matter what level you're in. Then it's a matter of leveling up, if you can. Also, Souls games (since Demon's Souls in PS3) have MANY elements that are almost out of reach of the player to willfully manage, or are really tedious to manipulate. Not everything is at the user's control, so keep playing and reach further levels, use Agape, or make a new character.
- Anonymous
Fear not maggots... They will remake this game and hopefully without soul memory
- Anonymous
This has got to be the dumbest most convoluted nonsense multiplayer system. Just ridiculous
It really tickles me that they made the multiplayer for these games so difficult to actually do. There are so many layers as well as just plain rng weather you can see other players or not. Not to mention split communities between consoles.
I guess it does make those times when you do get some online action all the more special.
Doing a fight club in the Iron Keep in 2022 feels great.
- Anonymous
Good for dedicated builds, bad for players like me that uses a lot of weapons and armor just for fun and fashion and aways carries a bow. Since ds2 has the best weapons and fashion, it sucks to play trying to control your sm (like in a dedicated build).
Anyway, after all this years, i've still found some online activity, still have my fun and still don't mind trying to stay at a specific tier.
And F*CK agape ring.
- Anonymous
JC! Im tier 36 :O that explains why I dont get summon much on later levels
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Recently did my first playthrough of the game with pvp in mind (at last had good internet). I didn't understand how matchmaking works, and when did, I had to restart the game because my SM was too high. I fIrst time played the game being careful of Soul Memory. No buying items in shops that can be otherwise farmed. No buying titanite. Only buy armor and weapons you are gonna need. Never losing souls. Limited purchase of ammunition. Upgrade only couple of weapons. 1/3 of game played with agape ring. Etc.
IT SUCKS.
This is most hairbrained matchmaking system i have ever seen. I cannot comprehend how some people can defend this mess. I cannot comprehend why FROM never backed off and changed it into something sensible. Agape ring? Are you kidding me? Add to that cracked red orbs that need to be farmed or bought for 5000 and later 10000 souls and lack of uncracked orb, multiple places in game where you have to spend souls to progress, extremely narrow SM tiers.. Managing SM is a nightmare! In DS3 you can get covenant invasions in both Crucifiction Woods and Pontiff on every level from 50 to 120 and higher. Here? My favorite spot is Belfry Luna which is busy on its appropriate SM tier, but after that gets nearly completly empty. If you like PVP in one spot, you must stop progressing the game or you won't be able to use it anymore.
Yes, I'm salty. A game with fantastic pvp combat has absolutely terrible pvp mechanics.
- Anonymous
I feel like this is such an easily fixable system.
Instead of Soul Memory being the number of souls aquired , make it the number of souls spent
- Anonymous
In theory it seems like a good idea, stop people from staying at a certain level to gank newbies while having a **** load of health and any weapon/spell combination. The bad news is that this actually rewards better players, which generally speaking are the pvpers. I can run through the entire game, skip more AI, stick to bosses, upgrade my specific weapons/spells and when ready, invade someone 100 levels lower than me. Also just generally it rewards better players, you can have two players at different parts of the game, 30 levels apart and they can still invade/coop one another because one is better at the game. Overall the SL system worked much better than this one, this one actually ended up rewarding better players with easy pvp, which I actually dislike so please fix.
- Anonymous
Never before had a single souls mechanic generaetd such a volume of crying babies.
Dumbasses, dumbasses everywhere complaining about how this system makes the old meta inviable(which was definitely intentional) instead of looking at what it's good for.
This system is only a "problem" if you want to stay at a fixed tier and never go up, which... why should you? just keep playing and keep going up.
The sheer number of tiers and how large the gap gets at higher tiers ensures that you won't end up isolated.
Twinks using the agape ring? not so many people will be actually going for that, specially this late, and the ones they do will be further diluted across the numerous early tiers. You soon won't face them at all just plainly by going past their tier, just playing naturally.
By the point where your soul level is high enough that you can softcap one playstyle's stats and actually put enough points into others to have a funtional sub-build, the gap between one tier and the next is so humongous that non-leveling soul usage/deathloss will be a drop in the bucket for your soul memory tier, yet there's still enough high-level tiers that whoever you find online will *actually* be around your level.
The exponential increase in leveling costs after you hit 200 makes it so that lightweight havel mages that "break the game" won't actually be a thing until you hit the final tier.
And if you actually do play long enough to hit that final tier? at that point the only limit is your equipment slots, so just go bonkers. Your PvP advantages won't be how well you can min-max, but how much power can you draw out of the theoretical limits.
Y'all be crying about "muh meta!" over a system that was specifically designed for "don't worry, just keep leveling if you want, don't think about it too much".
SMH can't appreciate what it is and instead bashing for not being what it isn't.
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
I'm SL160 with a soul memory of 36 (~4,15m souls) I've seen ONE player's mark in my entire run. Am I f-ed for being invoked in someone's world as a sunbro?
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Easy soul memory fix that fromsoft's lazy ass didn't apply for some reason:
make it so that soul memory increases when you SPEND souls, not GAIN them.
- Anonymous
Most players: this system is so terrible! my matchmaking is fckd, i can't summon dudes to defend me or invade with all the advantages possible!
Me, with over 75 millions of souls: MY HUNGER IS INSATIABLE
- Anonymous
Now I see why this community likes this game the least on average. I came here looking for the meta range. What a dumb system.. Real gamers wanna make their ideal build and put themselves against other players, not NPC they learn to predict. Twinks are dumb I agree but the trade off is nowhere near worth it, just a bad idea.. Every other aspect is ok imo. Sad, the pvp is more than half of why the communities last. Glad this didn't last. You can't really have a meta like this. Enjoying the game regardless, loving my playthroughs.
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Since there's no uncracked eye orbs in ds2, the only ways to maintain low and mid level invasion scene is to use agape ring, and periodically farm mobs for the orbs (can't buy them since you cant get souls), or cheat them in. This means only the most dedicated players will bother at all and it kills any sense of normalcy throughout the playtime.
It also doesn't solve twinking problem, it distills twinks to the best and most dedicated players. They'll get to agape ring deathless and pump all their points into levels; you'll get some cool armours and die a few times. Suddenly they're the same soul memory as you, but while you're SL 40, they're SL 80.
Blue covenant is dead. Red invaders are very rare. Dried finger + Delicate String playthroughs are moot. Consumables are extremely limited. Coop grants no souls, or you go up in brackets. Want to test a different weapon and upgrade it - you go up in brackets. Want to stay at SL 150 without wearing agape ring? Eventually you'll end up playing with and against SL 250+, you'll feel bad. Want to get Outcry so you can cast one cool spell per rest? That's two levels you just lost if you're around SL 120; that other guy leveled up and got stronger instead. It's miniscule with 2 levels, but it all adds up to one trainwreck of a system.
It's a shame, because DS2 is the best souls game to coop due to it's enemy placement and sheer amount of bullshit, and would be most fun to invade and Delicate String + Dried Finger run, due to the variety of zones.
- Anonymous
Its a good idea on paper, but too much stuff gets in the way of it working to prevent gank, ppl having high weapon etc.
Consumables arrows and all the stuff you buy but dont use and the the souls lost to dying punish you very hard
Being forced to level character as much as possible and the need to be carefull of weapon selection and upgrading because if the guy that invades has put everything into a dedicated build and didnt wasted anything will destroy anyone who dies and plays around too much with gear at same/similar soul memory
there is no perfect solution for pvp and for pve its way worse especially when you help as a phantom alot
- Anonymous
Let's be honest here... you only hate soul memory because it doesn't let you gank anymore.
You coward f*cks
- Anonymous
This might be crap, but at least we don't have to fight people with end-game content at lvl 10 *cough* dark souls 3 *cough*
- Anonymous
Is Soul Memory a bad mechanic? It sure is horrendous and ruins the game a lot for me and many other players who would much prefere to have a level-based matchmaking rather than this bs where you HAVE to spend all of your souls on leveling unless you want to be in constant disadvantage to other players who did so. SM murdered any meta SL one should stop at. Every lifegem, every arrow, every set of armor and weapon bought for collection purposes now make your character weaker. Forever! It's like an unending falling into the abyss... And the only solution to this flaw is a ring which takes up a precious ring slot and leaves you not only weaker, but also unable to repair your broken gear and buy stuff (RIP archer builds). Terrible!
Now, is there a way From could fix it?.. Yes, I can see one very clearly. For example, SM could only count the souls you spend on character levels and weapon reinforcements. Simple, right? Basicly, only add to SM souls spent to make your character stronger. And never the souls you have gathered, the souls you have lost, the souls you spent on trinkets, buying things you don't need just to have 1 of everything and then some arrows and lockstones just in case. Now that would be a wise solution.
- Anonymous
F u c k whoever thought this was a smart idea
Completely ****ed pvp outside of the covenant system , hated for a good reason. Hopefully never again to be seen
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Wow. Looking thru these comments is like watching a war playout. Can confirm that the dark chasm invasions go atleast 6 tiers up. Did some at tier 26 (1mil) & got a dude at tier 32 (2mil) mirror squire invasions seem to be based off of cracked red eye ranges but im still not sure.
Soul Memory brought more balance and fairness to the game. Dark Souls 2 punishes you for having wasted your souls on consumables (remember that in Dark Souls 1 there was no such a thing as Lifegems).
- Anonymous
imagine making a mechanic so god awful that you needed to add a new item to fix it thus making the mechanic irrelevant because now players can just use said item to bypass this and Harass as many new players as they want
- Anonymous
what's that ran out of life gems but are on meta sm welp sucks to be you guess you don't get to have anymore gems or else you're gunna get pushed out of your level have fun
- Anonymous
Da due giorni a questa parte non riesci più a giocare in co-op con un altra persona, il mio lvl corrisponde a 98 mentre l'altra persona è al 100. So che ci sono determinate zone in cui non è possibile fare evocazioni, ma visto che la differenza di lvl è minima, perché non riesco ad evocare o ad essere evocato? E'la prima run
- Anonymous
This mechanic is really good and FromSoft should add it into DS3. It really balances players beyond the character level. If you want to keep certain tier just buy the Agape Ring from straid
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
this comment section is full of whiners and complainers get good kiddies
- Anonymous
i wish there was only 4 tiers that would be nice and that you could only summon one tier lower or higher
- Anonymous
i used to think that you have to be in the same tier as the person you want to play with but when i use the name engraved ring i can go up to 6 tiers down so it works for me
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
this is legit the worst mechanic to exist in a souls game. they shoulda just made it level based and added the password system.
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
My friend and I just partied together like an hour ago fine (I summoned him). Now we're doing the exact same thing, in the exact same spot, and in the exact same way, and his sign isn't shown up. Neither of us advanced tiers with the last boss, so we should still be good (there's actually a tier to spare, so we should be fine). Any known issues or bugs that mess this up?
- Anonymous
At the end of the day, just be glad they'll never implement this system in a future soulsborne game
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
I've farmed a lot of souls to upgrade a lot of weapons cause i like the swapping, now i'm underleveled :D
- Anonymous
Im using the ring that absorbs souls currently at SM7 and I just beat the Sinner, I'm trying to get top tier gear to drop for newbies in the cathedral. I guess helping fresh characters is a benefit to SM in a way, Souls games always did encourage some of that jolly cooperation.
- Anonymous
If I see blood stains, does that mean they are within my summoning range or is there no limit to the range of blood stains?
- Anonymous
So If i cheated and got lv 839 while my soul memory is still tier 1 means i ll get easy pvp?
- Anonymous
You'd be surprised at how many new players there are on this game on xnox1. like, brand new. - currently on my sl25 tier 4 char with agape and the GreatSword (ultra) and a +5bandit axe that i created shortly after agape was added. got all the max tier rings that i want too. - just helping people wreck the bosses at the start and every now and then wreck a couple of hosts X'D
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
It’s like people forgot victors stone allows enemies to inifinitely respawn with only a minor difficulty increase especially considering you’d have to have repeatedly defeated the enemy for it to get tougher. I only mention this because a lot of comments say that SM and limited enemies are the two worst mechanics. Also if an enemy stops spawning and you can bring it back anytime you want or make it stop spawing again it makes it possible and much easier to do with places where you get ganked or an enemy is hard to pass every time. It also makes hollowing a thing that actually makes a difference and not just hear about or something that changes your appearance.
- Anonymous
The most dumb mechanics ever created in soul series, so dumb that people will boycott the series if this stupid system ever return again
- Anonymous
If they could just remove this mechanic the game would've been much more active and fun, tired of fighting turtle havels or jack of all trades master of everything
- Anonymous
5 years and I still can’t comprehend the existence of this mechanic
- Anonymous
If you remove this factor from multiplayer formulas, the game becomes more fun! I only ever play the game solo if I ever play this game anymore, otherwise with friends. Even that's annoying if they need to farm weapons and outclass your soul "memory". Of course I haven't bothered touching the updated ones for PS4/Xbone. This still a thing in that release?
- Anonymous
At what tier do most players cap? Or more specifically, at what tier are you able to fin the most people, both on coop and PvP?
i'm on my first ever run of DS2 and i'm almost at soul memory tier 31 and i'm level 136 (i'm not good, i grind). the tables seem to suggest that soul memory doesn't reset on NG+. on NG+1 in order to open the shrine of winter, you need a soul memory of 2m. what if i reach 2m before going to NG+1? do i need to collect 2m more souls, or is it static?
- Anonymous
I like the SM mechanic tbh. It prevented the DS1 issue of new players walking into Undead Burg only to have a much more experienced player invade them at SL 4-8 and assblast them with fully upgraded endgame gear.
- Anonymous
Don't actually have xbox live for 360 rn...wondering if it's worth so I can play online.
- Anonymous
It’s Always Sunny at FromSoftware, S2E1, The Gang Ruins Online Features
I decided to play my old tier 44 save... it has been two months and still I found no one pvp.
- Anonymous
Playing on PS4, SL 184, SM tier 37, anyone interested in farming some sunlinght medals? Message me, nick: rmstoo
Is anyone interested do some Sunbro Co-op? I play on both PC (SOTFS) and on PS3 (Vanilla). I have several characters in different levels, from low ones till 17 million soul memory. My nick on PC is: King_Havel And on PS3 is: Dastiefeleid666 Praise the Sun! \o/
- Anonymous
Welcome to where souls stand still, none of them leave and none of them will.
- Anonymous
So stupid that lost souls still count towards soul level. This way, if you are bad, you will be matched up with even higher level players.
- Anonymous
I'm looking for people to farm some goddamn Sunlight Medals. I play on Steam. Feel free to add me there: King_Havel
- Anonymous
So i just lost 30k trying to get my souls back from a platform after an impossible jump. I died, theyre gone, but their memory lives on. Wouldve been better to just spend them on trash
- Anonymous
Does soul memory still go up if Im spending on items instead of leveling?
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Why was soul memory needed again? It's so complicated for no good reason.
- Anonymous
Soul Memory is like marriage : they fucked it so much they got to put a ring on it.
- Anonymous
First the ads block all the item descriptions so that I have 2 reload the page multiple times to just get a glance at wtf I'm trying to read, and now the ads have upgraded to tearing my me away to some ad spam sight telling me I've won a new phone. Took me 5 attempts just to post a mf-ing comment. Why do I come here Why did I male an account? This is awful!
- Anonymous
The real problem with soul memory isn't exactly the mechanic itself but the game it's in. With the ability to lose souls before spending them, farm the same enemy multiple times and even use items that increase the souls you get per kill it makes these games the WORST for this mechanic. I believe this is a great idea to tie your experience to online matchmaking but only in games where it would be more specific and accurate because in a souls game it's just too random per player and it feels like a very ignorant decision without careful thought put into it.
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Player 1: experienced, doesn't lose souls by dying, spends them on weapon upgrading etc
Player 2: new, dies often loses souls needed for upgrading and strengthening their character
Souls count towards memory in both examples. GG
- Anonymous
If anyone requires assistance on Xbox 360, I'd be happy to help. GoofyQuasar85: tier 41 at 16,000,000 souls. I recommend mic play via private chat or the Discord App (username similar but friend code numbers will be sent to those who prefer the app and doesn't have a mic for the system.)
- Anonymous
Have they patched this out yet!? They patched out the summoning range on Bloodborne.
- Anonymous
I think i have to go to NG +2 cuz i don't see*****... it started when i came to tier 37= 8000000 soul memory
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Looking to get summoned, SM 19 million, using small soapstone at black gulch for rotten fight. Just need that sunlight spear
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Soul Memory seems like a complicated concept at first but put in context of the world it sounds less daunting: Your interference from other worlds is based on the amount of souls you've gained, and by extension the strength of the monsters you've beaten.
The universe doesn't like you at first but grows to let you have assistance from slightly higher levels after your first 150000 souls, and then unlocks the rest of that beautiful 5000000 soul memory range.
Tip: Start at the same time as your friends. The Pursuer is infinitely easier that way.
- Anonymous
Looking for players. I'm tier 42 but you only need to be tier 36 or higher.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/grenadr
Looking for someone to co-op and get my covenents up, tier 36, steam- Seeker Indeath
- Anonymous
A very flawed system. You could be SL 140 but get summoned or invaded by a SL 70 guy who barely does damage compared to you. Sure, there's the Agape Ring, but that also restricts you from leveling up.
- Anonymous
Looking for coop, im tier 43 (37M Soul Memory exactly) PSN = Eyez0r (with a zero instead of an O)
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
Noobs lol, does nobody realize you can get infinite enemy spawns with the Covenant of Champions... It makes enemies harder and no invasions by players but infinite spawns even for places you ve cleared previously, everything respawns infinitely with this covenant
- Anonymous
only the worst thing to ever accurse dark souls, alongside every mob being perishable after so many deaths, which in turn adds up to the worst possible experience in dark souls and the ability to eventually render a character PERMANENTLY VOID if you die one too many times... paired with the abhorrent hallowing effects.
"let's make co-op barely available!" *****ing brilliant, should've kept playing the pirated version instead
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
I Have 15.000.000 Soul Memories Now. Anyone Wants To PVP? PSN: exeonesoul ^-^
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
- Anonymous
When you buy a bunch of stones and upgrade a bunch of weapons just to try them out and ditch them, then you find out this is a thing
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